The Consulting Growth Podcast

From Growth to Exit: What Founders Need to Get Right Early | Richard Goold & Prof. Joe O'Mahoney

• Prof. Joe O'Mahoney

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What does leadership really look like when growth, pressure, and personal risk collide?
In this episode, Joe O’Mahoney speaks with Richard Goold about scaling consulting firms, leading under strain, and building long-term value without losing culture.

Richard Goold supports founders, CEOs, and boards through the hardest stages of growth—scaling sustainably, protecting culture, and preparing for long-term value creation. He has led and exited consulting businesses, including a £35m sale following an MBO, and now advises fast-growth firms across the UK and US. Earlier in his career, Richard also served as a frontline Met Police officer, an experience that deeply shaped his views on leadership, trust, and decision-making under pressure.

Richard shares his journey from big consulting firms to leading Moorehouse through an MBO, growing the business from £3m to £35m, and ultimately selling it. He reflects on the realities of leadership during high-stakes moments, including remortgaging personal assets, navigating near-deal failures, and carrying responsibility for people as the firm scaled.

The conversation explores what truly drives firm value beyond revenue—succession planning, client concentration, codifying knowledge, and leadership depth—as well as why these factors must be addressed years before an exit process begins.

Joe and Richard close by discussing today’s consulting landscape, including the cultural challenges of remote work, the risks and opportunities of AI, and what leaders must do now to stay relevant and protect enterprise value.

In this episode you will learn:

What leadership under strain really looks like in growing consulting firms

  • How Morehouse scaled from an MBO to a £35m exit
  • Why people, succession, and culture drive long-term firm value
  • The risks of waiting too long to prepare for an exit
  • How to codify delivery IP and reduce founder dependency
  • Why everyone—not just partners—must contribute to growth
  • How AI and remote work are reshaping consulting firm value


This episode offers a grounded look at leadership when the stakes are real—from scaling and exits to culture, people, and personal risk. Richard’s experience provides practical insights for consultancy leaders navigating growth, strain, and long-term value creation.

Connect with Richard:

Website: RichardGoold.com 

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Prof. Joe O'Mahoney helps boutique consultancies scale and exit. Joe's research, writing, speaking and insights can be found at https://equitysherpa.com.



Joe:

Hello everyone, welcome back to the Consultancy Growth Podcast. Today we have the absolute pleasure of hosting Richard Gould, who was, among many other things, um managing partner at Morehouse for many years. So, Richard, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Joe. Happy New Year to you. Happy New Year to you. Would you mind starting off with a potted history of your uh successes and uh where you've been and what you've been up to to this to this stage?

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And before I do that, I hasten just to inject and be clear that partners as in business, not anything else, Joe.

Joe:

No, our wives might have something to say about that.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. I think my wife might be quite pleased, but anyway. Um so a bit about me. I'm a career consultant. Uh I left university, went to the Woolwich at the time, um, led on a big technology project, which was mobile phone banking. Woolwich was acquired by Barclays. Barclays like what we done at the Woolwich, and KPMG took the whole team out because they wanted to be able to offer that to multiple clients. So that was my my entry into consulting. Very fortunate as well, because having been in consulting and seen how people get into consulting, I was very fortunate not to have been part of that competitive process where I want them. Um I did want them, but they also wanted us as a team, which makes it a lot a lot easier. And especially now when I look at the challenges facing, you know, young people trying to get into consulting and trying to get you know just into work. You know, the numbers are far more against them than they were, you know, when I went into consulting. Yeah, yeah, it's tough out there, isn't it? It is really, really tough. Uh and as parents, we probably see that and can empathize you know with that, you know, as well. And I suppose you know, you as a as a as a university lecturer as well, it must be you know really stark. Yeah.

Joe:

Yes, it is it is tough. But I'm sure by the time, you know, in a few years we'll all have universal basic income and be uh be uh not have to work, Richard.

SPEAKER_00:

Listen, Joe, during a few years' time we could all be part of the United States of America, but we'll go into politics today. No, not just yet, maybe later. Yeah. Um, so that was my entry into consulting. I started right at the very bottom and grew up through the ranks of KPMG. KPMG was sold to Atos Origin. This is when all the big firms were divesting of their consulting businesses. I didn't want to be part of a French technology firm, so joined a company called Hydra. And I was a principal consultant, grew to director there, not an equity holder, part of an EMI scheme. And that business was sold. Um, I stayed there for a little bit, decided to go back to KPMG because there was an opportunity to do some work in the Middle East and help grow their consulting business in the Middle East. Um, I did that for a few years, did some great work out in Abu Dhabi and Dubai, and then decided that actually being part of a big LLP wasn't really what I wanted to do. And actually being part of a partnership where the very word partner is a bit of an oxymoron anyway, um, meant that you know I'd rather go and do the entrepreneurial piece. I joined Morehouse in 2011. Uh, that was a wholly owned business um owned by BT, so a large FTSE company. It bought the business for its uh project and program management capability. That was um its offer at the time. Only worked in that very, very narrow TMT, even narrower BT as a client. 100% of their work was 100% BT. And the plan was that we would divest that business within 12 to 18 months um through an MBO and then we'd grow it and sell it. The 18 months turned into three years. In 2014, we successfully completed an MBO. Um, we had PE backing until 11 pm on the night of the deal, and they decided to push us quite hard on a red line, which was um management not retaining the ability to make decisions on bonuses so long as we were delivering on our top and bottom line numbers. And for me that was really important because having built a business where followship and trust and transparency was really important for us, having that lever taken away was a red line that we'd agreed on as a partner team. We were happy for our bonuses as a partner team to be more subjective to you know other levers. But what we'd said was so long as we were delivering on what we committed to deliver financially, we wanted to make sure that we could stand up in front of our people at the start of the year, outline a bonus um a bonus uh scheme and deliver on that. And it didn't work. So um scary 48 hours. And uh long story short, we raised um money ourselves through remortgaging and loans. We got some bank debt, we took some invoice discounting, and we bought the business 100% ourselves. And we sacrificed a big chunk of salary, all of our bonuses for the best part of two years, uh, repaid all the debt, uh, owned the business entirely, and we built the business into um about 35 million pounds of revenue when we sold it. So, in terms of context, we joined at 3 million, uh, bought it back at about seven, and we sold it at about 35. And we sold that a French um technology firm. And I left in 2021 and um decided to do something a little bit different for a few years and joined the Met Police as a frontline officer um in Peckham, so covering Peckham, Brixton, Camberwell, London Bridge. So the business. Nice safe areas, Richard. Nice safe areas, absolutely not, and dealing with uh gangs primarily and learned a hell of a lot. It was the first time that I really felt part of a team without carrying the responsibility of a leader, and it really turned the tables in terms of looking at how leadership happens, it really turned the tables in terms of understanding the importance of trust, the significance of development and learning and holding on, being able to apply that learning, and just teamwork and confidence in your team. And for me, knowing that you know, when we go through a door, the person next to me isn't going to flinch was really, really important. And coming out of that organization really helped me understand what being led feels like, what teamwork, leadership, trust, and and all of those important things that it's very easy to rationalise away in the in the business world sometimes because the implications of getting it wrong are not so high. Sure. But uh, but it it's really put stuff into perspective, you know, for me. And I think if I just sum up my my um my career, there's probably a single thread that flows through it, and uh that's the importance of growth and supporting growth, both in terms of you know the revenue, financial growth as a business, but also the growth of people around you, um, culture, leadership, and specifically leadership under strain. And I don't think we talk enough about leadership under strain. This isn't strain when the necessarily the extremes of we're just about to have to close the business or we're in some real dire financial trouble. It's leadership when you are carrying the challenges of just being a leader.

Joe:

Yep, yep. And especially, I guess, given our focus on on boutiques, you know, some people, as you have done, have remortgaged to to save the company, especially through the tar hard times that we've had. But also, you know, you and I both know that leaders feel heavily the financial responsibilities for all the employees that work for them.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't we take that for granted sometimes because actually in growing consulting firms, the decisions about recruiting people are personal. And as a leader in a business, you tend to meet every single person that you bring in because it's personal. And therefore, you have that affinity from day one in terms of knowing that person, understanding that person, and really being able to empathize with their ambitions. You understand what their life is outside of the nine to five, what they do in that five to nine. And you realize that letting people go has life-changing consequences when you do that. Fortunately, touchwood, in all of my time at Morehouse, we never had to make any redundancies or get rid of um people because of um market conditions. Uh our attrition was low, probably lower than it probably should have been. Um, but we were a healthy business that managed to get the balance right. And if I'm honest, I think that's more luck than judgment. Um, the one thing I did learn was never turn off your recruitment machine. Yeah, we did that a number of times. And you can just imagine going into 2019, you know, COVID. Um, you know, what do you do? By that time, we were 140 people. We had no idea what that was going to mean for us. Fortunately, we won a big piece of work with uh the NHS and that carried us through and supported our growth during that period. But it just touches on that challenge of being a leader and and what it means in terms of the responsibility that you've got.

Joe:

Whilst we were on the topic of leadership, you've been very humble about your own sort of achievements and how you did there. And you might be uncomfortable speaking about this in detail, but clearly you got to the top of you know what's a quite compared, you know, the the directorship in KBMG is enough, it will be enough for many people, but you know, becoming managing partner amongst some very capable peers is no mean feat, and then leading the firm to to what it achieved. You're not, and correct me if I have misunderstood you for the last few years, but you don't strike me as the shouty, red-faced, aggressive type of leader. Um at least I haven't seen that. So what was it that um I guess about you that both propelled you into leadership but also encouraged your peers to select you as a leader of the firm?

SPEAKER_00:

I think a big part of that, Joe, was my focus on the people side of the business. Okay. And you know I held executive responsibility for people and talent in the business. Uh we all took responsibility for growing the business, but in a people business of the size that we got to, being really hands-on in terms of how you attract, how you recruit, how you engage, how you excite, um, and how you attain people was really, really important. And I think there was a recognition that in a people business, having somebody who really was passionate about the people in the business and growing it in that way was important. I also think there was something about the exit plan of the other partners. And you know, they wanted post-transaction to go and do something very different. So having somebody who was in the business as a managing partner, especially when we went through the acquisition, was really important for them too.

Joe:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so yeah, some of it was capability, some of it was probably situational as well.

Joe:

Yeah, because you you I from memory, you invent you invested a fair chunk of revenue in development, which much higher than the average, I think.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. And we um we created a mantra um quite early on, which was all around developing extraordinary leaders. And we wanted that to apply to absolutely everybody in the business. It wasn't just about the runway of future leaders and succession, it was about recognising the leadership capability as a capability that everybody can benefit from. And in doing so, we wanted to differentiate ourselves. And at the time, the CIPD um annual benchmark for investment was about£297 per person per year. Okay. You don't get a lot for that. But I suppose when you are a large enterprise organization and you add it all up together, you can get you know some good stuff. We budgeted two and a half thousand pounds per person per year. Wow, okay. And we spent most of it. Wow. And we created some really best programs. We were really bold and we partnered with VARDA.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

One program. Which was all around executive presence, communicating powerfully and prolifically, storytelling. So what we wanted to try and do was take some of the skills that really, really different industries, you know, do um to you know develop people in the skills that you know they can, you know, help. And you know, when you look at the source of people who have been through, you know, RADA, um, you know, Tam and Egerton, you know, just at the time, it was his tutor that taught some of our people. Okay. You know, really powerful. And and that for us selfishly helped us build some real industrial muscle in terms of capability and differentiation. For our people, going to RADA studios and learning in the same places where in the next studio they're auditioning for cats or auditioning for lemm is is you just don't have that experience, you know, usually. And we also developed some some um bespoke programs. So development programs for every single grade in the business. Um when I joined the business, we didn't take or the most junior person that we had in the business were senior consultants, so people who had five years solid experience in consulting, typically from a big firm.

unknown:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

And we realized at the time that that wasn't going to support us scaling. So as part of one of our annual escapes, you know, we decided that we wanted to bring in a junior cadre. We didn't want to do graduates, though. Um because there was a level of investment in graduates in the first 18 months where you're having just to test whether they can walk and talk simultaneously, get their backslides out of bed and just behave, you know, adults need to behave. And that's not a stereotypical um brush over every graduate. But for us, it is a fast-growth business. We just couldn't take that risk. Yeah, for sure. But we wanted people who had been to university or done an apprenticeship and had two years' experience in industry. Okay. And then we brought them people in and we developed uh an academy program where we taught them all the skills. And that was taught by um senior consultants and managers. So people who are not that far away from where these people are at, so they could empathize with the journey that they had been on. They were able to share experiences as well. And that was immensely powerful.

Joe:

That's great, that's great. That's uh so aside from the people side of things, so you uh you managed to grow the business significantly, um uh in in a in a market that's quite competitive and quite tough. So more house, you know, exists in that kind of PPM change management, so at least for a while, did um space, which is highly competitive. Aside from the people side of things, what differentiated you, what enabled you to achieve that growth in a space that's quite competitive?

SPEAKER_00:

Sorry, question. Two things. So when we divested from BT, our track record was TMT and BT. Very, very deep, as deep as you could possibly go. The benefit of that though was that we had delivered some of the biggest programs BT had ever done. Some of the biggest ones, whether it was connecting countries through underwater cables or whether it was launched BT TV and BT Sport. So massive programs, which we could then take as examples of the depth of experience that we had to other industries. So it was then about how do we pay that experience into other sectors to start with. First step was financial services, one a big piece of work with Goldman Sachs. Again, really credible badge, that then opens up opportunities at HSBC, at Barclays, et cetera, et cetera. Public sector and health soon followed. Pharmaceuticals, you know, followed. So we had a we managed to cover all of the sectors. And then, you know, we managed to broaden out from PPM. And you know, the natural evolution for that was chain management to start with, and then strategy, and then technology.

Joe:

Um just just to pause there for a second, was there an explicit strategy to say, okay, let's take what we've got, take it to different sectors, and then take what we've got in those sectors and then build out the service lines? And there's a second part to that question, which I realise that would be a simplification of what happened. But what were the triggers for you saying, okay, we've established in this sector, let's move on so that you didn't get too thinly spread.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, what was there a grand plan? Probably not, that would be very generous of us to say we had a great strategy, we sat down one day and the next day we implemented it all, and it all went amazingly well. I I think there was some just logical common sense sequencing. Okay. How do you take the experience you've got in a particular sector doing you know something that every organization needs and take that out to other sectors? And what we did was we were quite bold in how we sold that to other sectors. You know your sector better than we do. Don't pay us to come and tell you about your sector. We can come and help you, though, based on some amazingly deep experience, unrivaled experience in another sector, but trying to do the same kinds of stuff, improve customer service, improve profitability, launch new products and services, etc. Okay, and then I think once we had done that, it was a lot easier when you had a footprint in a sector and you had sector credibility to start developing new go-to-market capabilities too. And there was never something where people could look at us and think, bloody hell, that's a massive jump. How have you done that? It was just natural evolution. PPM to change, change to strategy, strategy to technology, um, operational efficiency. So these the lays of those onions. And then back to your other question, how do you differentiate yourself in a really competitive market? We were really clear that we were a small firm. We could never drop in teams of 10 or 20 people overnight. And our offer to our clients were that we wanted to work with you on your most strategic projects and programs. In doing so, you'll have access to the very best consultants you can have access to. If it's that important to you, we want you to put your very best people in. We'll work as a blended team. And in doing so, we will leave a legacy of increased skills, knowledge, and capability in your organization when we finish this work.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

So very different to the big firms where when you leave, you wait for them to fall over knowing that they're going to call you. Because they need you. Well, we don't want our clients to become addicted to consultants. Because we were confident enough that if we did a great job on the work that we delivered today, the challenges they face tomorrow would still need consultants.

Joe:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

And that worked for us. And having established the academy, we then made the academy available to our clients. So we helped them our clients to develop consulting capability. Because we were confident enough that, well, firstly, they'd be our future buyers, those people who will get help progressing their careers. And secondly, that the challenges that organizations faced are always going to need support. And it worked for us. And that was a massive differentiator. You can't differentiate in consulting on price. No. You can you differentiate on the quality of your people. So hold that bar high and make sure that every time you bring somebody else in, they move that bar that a little bit higher. Be absolutely relentless on protecting that quality of talent and make fast decisions if people are not where they need to be and cannot get to where you need them to be.

Joe:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

And help organizations build muscle as well.

Joe:

Yeah. Yeah, I like that approach of building something internally and offering it to your clients. Because it also stress tests your own what you've already done. Because I'm sure this wasn't the case with you, but very often what consultancies do internally, they probably wouldn't offer clients because it's probably not of the same quality as their client-facing work.

SPEAKER_00:

And Pajar, if I look at some of if I look at the people who are leading Morehouse now as partners in Pharma, in health, etc., these are people that joined junior grades. These are people that are selling and sitting on 10, 15 million pound revenue in parts of a business. And their network is as informed by the people they grew up with as senior consultants and enabled by or enabled in the knowledge that we supported those clients to develop their careers through things like the Academy as anything else. And it's a real privilege for me now, outside of Morehouse, seeing the partners who grew up in the firm, leading that firm. And I and I think the best partners in that business are the ones that grew up in that business and can empathize with the senior consultants and managers, etc.

Joe:

There's, if they don't mind me saying that, there's a another threat to your career. Um, you know, thinking about the police and gangs and conversations we've had about, you know, how you develop MBA students and students, and perhaps people from underprivileged backgrounds. Um that that focus on developing people to achieve their potential seems to be a common thread. I'm wondering where that comes from, because if you speak to many managing partners, they'll say, well, their passion is making as much money as possible, or um, or you know, client whatever, you know, some some lovely praises, but uh but you you seem to have a constant thread, which is the development of people to achieve their potential when perhaps they might not have done so otherwise.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I do like a bit of an underbog. I do like seeing people grow exponentially as well. I find that the most rewarding part to any of the work that I do. And I think that's why you know we do the stuff that we do now.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's supporting people where there is that spark of potential, there is that confidence in their ability to, you know, realize something that otherwise they wouldn't be able to realise. Some of the closest relationships I've got now. It's um you know, people that I worked with at the most junior levels of the Morehouse who supported my career and vice versa. And people that I worked with, you know, in the police as well, where you know two minutes after a call on the radio, you're walking into somebody's pointing a gun at you. So, you know, that's where you know when I talk about confidence that the person next to you isn't going to flinch, is so important. And when you're able to think about dynamic risk assessments in split seconds.

Joe:

Yeah. Yeah. Great. You mentioned what we do now. So we are both partners in Equity Sherpa, um, and we help uh boutique consultancies and professional service firms maximize their value. I'm interested in what lessons you learned, aside from the people side of things, in terms of maximizing firm value, which you did very well with Morehouse, um what have you learned from the experience? And I'm not I'm less interested in things that you did well because I think we've covered a few of those. But what lessons did you learn about maximising firm value that you now apply um with your clients and my clients um around Europe and the US for you as well, especially?

SPEAKER_00:

So we did do well, but we didn't do well straight off the bat. But we learn as we went. And I think this is one of the challenges and opportunities for consulting firms. There are very few people who have the skills, knowledge, experience of having walked in the shoes of founders. And by the time you engage corporate finance to support you on a deal, there's not a lot you can do on the big nuts and bolts that can protect and enhance equity value. And you know, we had a false start before we sold the business in 2019 because we had not uncovered some of the things that would that would ultimately shift the gauge when it came to enterprise value. And I think the work that we're able to do now in terms of helping people uncover the unknown unknowns and to invest in the things that are not hard to do, but you can't do overnight and can take two or three years to do, it can be significant. And I'm talking about things like client concentration, I'm talking about things like succession planning and that runaway of future leaders. Who is taking over that business when at the end of the earnout you go off and do what it is you want to go and do? How do you codify tacit knowledge? And that is so important and even more important in the HAI, in my opinion. And then what does quality of earnings really look like? Do people really understand what quality of earnings really looks like? And again, if you are only starting to consider those questions once you've engaged corporate finance and once you're six months out from a deal, you are leaving cash on the table. Undoubtedly. 100% all of the time. You're leaving cash on the table. So there's some of the biggest learns, you know, for me. And that's part of the reason why that investment in people is so important. Because your success and a massive part of your evaluation will be on the people behind you.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And if all of a sudden the people behind you start disappearing off because they're not interested in, you know, where you're going, or if they are not capable of leading the business in the way that you've led the business, that's a massive challenge. And that challenge is only compounded if you are a founder with very few people around you. We were really lucky when we went into a deal because there were five partners, all really, really strong partners. So if something had happened and you know, one of us didn't come in the next day for whatever reason, then there was some uh contingency and continuity there. But for some growing consulting firms, there isn't even that. Then outside of that, the second consideration is who's behind you? What does that runway look like in terms of what would happen if if this particular person didn't come in tomorrow? So what's your emergency um cord? And then who have you got who two years out could fill that role? And if you haven't got somebody, then you know you need to find somebody either through recruitment, and we'll talk about that in a minute about recruiting senior people because that's bloody hard. Um, or you need to make sure you're investing in the person who's two years out to be capable of doing what you need to do. Because you can't just write their name down today and then in 2027 wake up and think right they're ready now. Because that doesn't work. No. And we all know that hiring senior people is really, really hard. I have a shit trap record of doing it.

Joe:

Everyone does.

SPEAKER_00:

Everyone does. Exactly. But not everybody will put their hand up and say they haven't. Why? Because everybody tells a good story. Yes. And CVs are probably the most creative piece of literature that you know you've ever seen. And it's it's not until somebody is 12 months in that you really realize. Because the excuses then around, oh, I've got restricted covenants and I need some time to understand your business have gone. And 12 months is a long time to waste, and these are usually people who are very expensive. And the hardest people have ever are people who who are senior business developers. And in my opinion, they're unicorns. And that's another part of the reason why in Morehouse we were really clear that everybody contributed to growth. Yeah. And we tried to demystify sales because sales is a bit of a dirty word outside of senior people who understand the significance of it. And we were really clear around how everybody in that business could contribute to growth. And when I say everybody, I meant from the financial controller and the receptionist up to you know directors and part. Really, really clear. We were so explicit as part of the competency framework, and we we just normalized it. Good. Yep. And I think that was a massive accelerator for us. Yes.

Joe:

Yeah, okay. I think the idea of the multiple is a lot of the things that you're talking about contribute to what what a P firm might call the multiple that's paid for a company. And that's often a bit of a dark art for founders. They know about they all know all about revenue and they know about costs. And up until a certain point, they think that will get them, get them the deal that they want. But unless you've got them, unless you really understand what drives the multiple, um, you're always on the back foot, I think.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you're absolutely right, Joe. And value is built years before process starts. Yeah. And recognising that is so important. And I also think that you know time is is you know often matters more than perfection. And there's something about being ready enough, but knowing that some of the big components that will drive value and ultimately leave cash on the table, a significant chunks of cash on the table. Yep. Only things that you can do, you know, years out.

Joe:

Yes. One one final question, Richard, and that is, you know, times have times have changed a bit since, even since you know, you left Morehouse, which wasn't too long ago, but certainly since you grew Morehouse, what are you seeing? Um, obviously, you know, you do a lot of board advisory and strategic work around growth and exit for firms. What are you seeing in the market now that is different? Or perhaps there isn't, you know, perhaps it's all the same, I don't know. But what are you seeing that's different now that firms should be aware of in your more recent work that would be different to perhaps if you were talking about the industry 10-15 years ago?

SPEAKER_00:

There's a couple of things. I think there is something about the connectivity between your teams and accelerated by COVID, lockdown, remote working, and trying to get people back into the office. Because I do think that the unstructured time where you have people together helps build community, helps build culture, and helps you know really accelerate knowledge. And that's not a challenge that we had. Yep. Um, but it is a challenge that organizations you know face now. You've seen some of the big firms become quite draconian in terms of we want everyone back five days a week and people turning around and saying, not for me. No, thank you. And I don't think that is the right answer, but I do think there is a balance around that. And I think the other piece, Joe, is around that rapid advancement of AI. And you know, we've seen some high-profile instances of large global consultancy firms get it very wrong, and it costs them not just an engagement, but costs them reputation. And not just short term, because you know, I saw in the paper yesterday, you know, a reference to one of those firms that it was first reported three months ago. It's still being talked about, and that's a difficult thing to recover from. So, how do you get people together so that you can learn and grow a business together without it being draconian? So getting that balance right. And how do you harness technology in a way that it is an accelerator for your business but also for your clients? And you're doing it in a transparent way. And I think they are two things that are fundamentally changing that landscape and that the AI one specifically, uh, I think will, if it's not already, will become one of the compounding value factors and one of the massive dilutary value uh valuation factors.

Joe:

Yeah, it's it's very interesting. It's uh there's huge potential, but also huge risk for some firms. I'm dealing with a firm at the moment, and AI is already eating their revenues, um, and they're not in control of that. So, in effect, their clients are using their own publicly available AI to do 95% of the work that this firm would have done. So I think there's quite an existential challenge for a few firms, but I think other firms, you know, can can harness it to, as you say, accelerate their growth and perhaps even change their business models.

SPEAKER_00:

I think you're absolutely right. Um, and I think this is where it's so important that leaders learn.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And leaders have got to invest in their own development as well. You know, seeing that top line, bottom line growth is really important, but remaining current with where the market is today and where the market's going is is absolutely key. I I actually think it's been made a lot easier to do that now. There are so many bite-sized courses, you know, online. Google have a whole suite of um, you know, training courses, all three.

Joe:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, an hour at a time, it'll give you enough. But I think the real danger is that if you are not keeping up yourself as a leader and you end up in a client conversation where there are other businesses pitching for that same piece of work, it's going to be pretty embarrassing for clients asking you questions that you can't answer or didn't have a perspective on when it comes to you know technology evolution. Yeah.

Joe:

Yep, definitely brilliant. Okay, listen, I think we should probably leave it there. We we have the fortune we we could we can talk all week about this, uh, if uh aside from the podcast. So thank you for your time, Richard. Um, and uh undoubtedly I'll see you in the next few days anyway.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks very much, Joe.

Joe:

All right, take care, mate. Cheerio

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Joe O'Mahoney

Host